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Hugh7

New Zealand
3 Posts Baby Arrived on 7/8/2012

Posted - 10/22/2008 :  17:49:38 Show Profile Visit Hugh7's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can't believe the guys who would cut the most sensitive part of their son's penis off "to look like me". If you think it's important that you look alike, wouldn't it be fairer to restore your foreskin to look like him? And here's a good analogy:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Images/looklike.gif

To answer Vargas Shane:

>1 Many older men, who have bladder or prostate gland problems, also develop difficulties with their foreskins due to their surgeon's handling, cleaning, and using instruments. Some of these patients will need circumcising. Afterwards it is often astonishing to find some who have never ever seen their glans (knob) exposed before!

That's a lot of circumcisions wasted on all the babies who grow up to be men, grow old and never have those problems, or have them and get treated (as they almost always can be) without circumcision. If they've never seen their glans, that too can be treated without circumcision, if it needs to be treated at all.

>2 Some older men develop cancer of the penis - about 1 in 1000 - fairly rare, but tragic if you or your son are in that small statistic. Infant circumcision gives almost 100% protection, and young adult circumcision also gives a large degree of protection.

Again, that's a vast number of wasted circumcisions - especially since the protection is far from 100% and the circumcised men get cancer on their circumcision scar, which should tell you something. Cancer of the penis is rarer than male breast cancer, and men have less use for their breasts than their foreskins, but we don't go cutting them off.

> 3 Cancer of the cervix in women is due to the Human Papilloma Virus. It thrives under and on the foreskin from where it can be transmitted during intercourse. An article in the British Medical Journal in April 2002 suggested that at least 20% of cancer of the cervix would be avoided if all men were circumcised. Surely that alone makes it worth doing?

No. That's still about 600 circumcisions wasted to prevent one case - if it were accurate.

> 4 Protection against HIV and AIDS. Another British Medical Journal article in May 2000 suggested that circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract the HIV virus. (It is very important here to say that the risk is still far too high and that condoms and safe sex must be used - this applies also to preventing cancer of the cervix in women who have several partners.)

That figure of 8 times is way too high. The studies from Africa show a 60% reduction, and each new study shows less protection as they correct for more confounders. And if you do use condoms and confine yourself to one partner, of course circumcision makes no difference.

>A BBC television programme in November 2000 showed two Ugandan tribes across the valley from one another. One practised circumcision and had very little AIDS, whereas, it was common in the other tribe, who then also started circumcising. This programme showed how the infection thrived in the lining of the foreskin, making it much easier to pass on.

That programme was pure propaganda. (There are some people who make their career on promoting circumcision.) What other differences were there between the tribes? Polygamy? Widow inheritance? Circumcision may just have been a marker of something else. The programme showed an experiment with a dead foreskin. We now know that the foreskin contains cells that are an important part of the immune system.

>5 As with HIV, so some protection exists against other sexually transmitted infections. Accordingly, if a condom splits or comes off, there is some protection for the couple. However, the only safe sex is to stick to one partner or abstain.

The latest study, from New Zealand, of 500 men followed from birth to age 32, showed NO protection from STDs.

>6 Lots of men, and their partners, prefer the appearance of their penis after circumcision, It is odour-free, it feels cleaner, and they enjoy better sex. Awareness of a good body image is a very important factor in building self confidence.

If they prefer that, they are free to cut any parts of their bodies off that they want. Others' mileage may vary. Some men say getting circumcised was the worst decision they ever made. Sex afterwards has been compared to going colour-blind, or blind in one eye. Most boys would have more self-confidence knowing they have all their bodies than by learning they have had part cut off.

>7 Balanitis is an unpleasant, often recurring, inflammation of the glans. It is quite common and can be prevented by circumcision.

Not that common, not prevented altogether by circumcision, and can be prevented or treated by other means.

>8 Urinary tract infections sometimes occur in babies and can be quite serious. Circumcision in infancy makes it 10 times less likely

UTIs occur in about 1% of boys (and 4% of girls). So circumcising 1000 boys to prevent UTIs wastes 991 circumcisions - 990 on boys who will never get them, and 1 on a boy who will still get them.

Notice the enormous variety of reasons people offer for circumcision. Clearly something else is going on.
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TUS

United Kingdom
36 Posts Baby Arrived on 4/4/2009

Posted - 10/23/2008 :  03:39:49 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm circ'd but don''t think we'll get our son done. She's not really in favour of it. We're both athiest so it would really only be for hygiene reasons - but I think that if the person is brought up to be hygienic then so will his bits :-)

Subject to any medical advice of course - if there's a medical need then I wouldn't think twice. It hasn't hindered me except when I first starting having sex and erm, found it hard to control myself :-s But that's something you learn over time ;-)
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f99944r

2 Posts Baby Arrived on 1/1/2009

Posted - 10/23/2008 :  06:12:20 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't believe people are still debating it. It's clearly not necessary, and it's not more hygienic. It doesn't take "special care" to clean a whole penis - circumcised and uncircumcised men have to rinse the glans in their showers, and pulling the foreksin back before rinsing the glans doesn't count as special arduous care. Also the risk of it needing to be done later is just so small it's not worth bothering about. I would rather go through life with intact genitals and the risk of a problem than never knowing what it's like experiencing the full sexual sensation.
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TUS

United Kingdom
36 Posts Baby Arrived on 4/4/2009

Posted - 10/24/2008 :  11:11:16 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Its funny ... because it's all i've ever known it doesn't bother me that I am circ'd. But at the same time I am rather annoyed my parents chose to make that decision on my behalf. It's an odd one to weigh up - unless you get it done later in life and have sexually experienced both, I don't think you're "qualified" to say either is better than the other.
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hardie

63 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/18/2006

Posted - 10/25/2008 :  19:53:47 Show Profile Visit hardie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Check this article on the risks of circumcision, warning there are 2 explicit photographs showing badly infected wounds after circumcision: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/mrsa.html


Edited by - hardie on 10/25/2008 19:59:30
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hardie

63 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/18/2006

Posted - 10/27/2008 :  19:17:05 Show Profile Visit hardie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The internet provides the ability for information to be circulated, here's a link that documents circumcision events in the news, the sort of information that your local circumcision doctor omitted to tell you when making your decision: http://www.cirp.org/news/

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hardie

63 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/18/2006

Posted - 10/31/2008 :  21:18:42 Show Profile Visit hardie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Let's not forget the loss that is experienced by males because of circumcision. We rob them of the most erogenous part of the penis. Here is the research to back up this statement:

PS: This does not include Taylor's (1990) ground breaking reserach "Mucosa of the Prepuse" which detailed the nerve endings and function of the foreskin.

Researcher Dr Morris Sorrells and others enlisted 159 men from the San Francisco Bay area, 91 of them circumcised, and conducted touch-sensitivity tests, using an instrument that presses with calibrated hairs, on 17-19 different places on their penises. The men could not see where they were being touched.
It was found that the most sensitive part of a circumcised penis was on the scar in the middle underneath. But several places on the foreskin were more sensitive than that while the glans of the uncircumcised penis was more sensitive than in the circumcised.
The paper is summarised here:
Objective
To map the fine-touch pressure thresholds of the adult penis in circumcised and uncircumcised men, and to compare the two populations.
Subjects and methods
Adult male volunteers with no history of penile pathology or diabetes were evaluated with a Semmes-Weinstein monofilament touch-test to map the fine-touch pressure thresholds of the penis. Circumcised and uncircumcised men were compared using mixed models for repeated data, controlling for age, type of underwear worn, time since last ejaculation, ethnicity, country of birth, and level of education.
Results
The glans of the uncircumcised men had significantly lower mean ( SEM ) pressure thresholds than that of the circumcised men, at 0.161 (0.078) g ( P = 0.040) when controlled for age, location of measurement, type of underwear worn, and ethnicity. There were significant differences in pressure thresholds by location on the penis ( P < 0.001). The most sensitive location on the circumcised penis was the circumcision scar on the ventral surface. Five locations on the uncircumcised penis that are routinely removed at circumcision had lower pressure thresholds than the ventral scar of the circumcised penis.
Conclusions
The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.
Sorrells ML, Snyder JL, Reiss MD, et al. Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis. BJU International 2007;99:864-9



The following research on adult circumcisions was recently published:

Two Korean researchers, DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang, studied 373 sexually active men, of whom 255 were circumcised and 118 were not. They found that circumcision reduced sexual pleasure in most cases and that a significant minority of men reported major injury to their penis, causing bleeding, scarring and chronic pain.

Summarizing their results, the authors write:

There were no significant differences in sexual drive, erection, ejaculation, and ejaculation latency time between circumcised and uncircumcised men. Masturbatory pleasure decreased after circumcision in 48% of the respondents, while 8% reported increased pleasure. Masturbatory difficulty increased after circumcision in 63% of the respondents but was easier in 37%. About 6% answered that their sex lives improved, while 20% reported a worse sex life after circumcision.

Conclusion
There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.

DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang, “The effect of male circumcision on sexuality”, BJU International, Vol. 99 (3), March 2007, pp. 619-22



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gonzo

USA
6 Posts Baby Arrived on 11/9/2008

Posted - 11/08/2008 :  08:46:46 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was circumcised as a baby. Actually, I was circumcised twice because the first time didn't go so well. Apparently it wasn't done right the first time from what my parents told me. My penis works fine now but there is a slight deformity to it. As a fully grown thinking man that realizes the unnecessary nature of circumcision because of the overwhelming body of evidence that exists, I wish that my parents had decided not to circumcise me...but i don't blame them because they didn't know better.

If there are any men out there that are considering it. All you have to do is watch one of these videos on Youtube of an actual circumcision. Watch the whole thing and turn your sound up. If you want to put your son through that for vanity reasons, that's your decision. I sure as hell won't http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MLtxCwdMv0
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ProudDaddy09

USA
22 Posts Baby Arrived on 1/25/2009

Posted - 11/08/2008 :  18:54:53 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I myself have watched many circumcision videos on youtube, yes it sounds and looks painful for the baby, when I look at the reasons I want my son to be circumcised they seem to be all selfish reasons, and I am sorry for that, maybe I should allow my son to make his own decision when he is old enough to understand, but my thoughts on that are that when he gets older his penis is well going to be larger than when he was first born, and if he chooses for the circumcision, won't it be more of a hassle for him since it would be a larger procedure costing more money, it would be constant care because his anatomy would become dirtier than when he was a new born and harder to take care off and an irritation when he gets erect I would guess that it would tug on the incision causing him pain? Am I proud that I am circumcised no, I could care less if I was or was not, but for vanity reasons and selfish reasons I will get him circumcised, he has the rest of his life to be mad at me if he does indeed care that his penis is not "intact" or "as god intended" as many of you have posted, and there are ways of restoring the foreskin, so if he doesn't like it there are many at-home methods of restoring the "damage done" to his penis, and those are my thoughts now that I have had time to think about it. I welcome anyone to ask me questions and I suppose I'll get my share of the "your a horrible person for doing this" talk.

I can not wait to be a father!
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ml66uk

2 Posts Baby Arrived on 6/14/2002

Posted - 11/09/2008 :  13:22:43 Show Profile Visit ml66uk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
NEA.

If you leave the little guy alone, he can choose to get circumcised later, when it's safer, less painful, and the results are cosmetically better. It costs more, but that's because they use general anesthetic, which is a good thing. If you circumcise him, he can restore, but it's a long difficult procedure, and the skin you grow back is nothing like what got cut off. The inner foreskin is easily the most sensitive part of the penis - it's not just there to protect the glans.

If my son wants to be circumcised when he's 18 (16 if he knows what he's doing), I'll pay for it and help him find a good surgeon. Until then, he stays intact. His body - his decision. If he wants to be circumcised later, it's easy to fix. If we'd had him circumcised, and he wanted to be intact, it's a problem.

You might also want to check out the following (click the links):

Canadian Paediatric Society
Recommendation: Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed.

http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/pregnancy&babies/circumcision.htm
Circumcision is a "non-therapeutic" procedure, which means it is not medically necessary. Parents who decide to circumcise their newborns often do so for religious, social or cultural reasons. To help make the decision about circumcision, parents should have information about risks and benefits. It is helpful to speak with your baby’s doctor.

After reviewing the scientific evidence for and against circumcision, the CPS does not recommend routine circumcision for newborn boys. Many paediatricians no longer perform circumcisions.


RACP Policy Statement on Circumcision
"After extensive review of the literature the Royal Australasian College of Physicians reaffirms that there is no medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision."
(those last nine words are in bold on their website, and almost all the men responsible for this statement will be circumcised themselves, as the male circumcision in Australia in 1950 was about 90%. “Routine” circumcision is now *banned* in public hospitals in Australia in all states except one.)

British Medical Association: The law and ethics of male circumcision - guidance for doctors
"to circumcise for therapeutic reasons where medical research has shown other techniques to be at least as effective and less invasive would be unethical and inappropriate."

National Health Service (UK)
”Many people have strong views about whether circumcision should be carried out or not. It is not routinely performed in the UK because there is no clear clinical evidence to suggest that it is has any medical benefit.”

The College of Physicians & Surgeons of British Columbia
"Circumcision is painful, and puts the patient at risk for complications ranging from minor, as in mild local infections, to more serious such as injury to the penis, meatal stenosis, urinary retention, urinary tract infection and, rarely, even haemorrhage leading to death. The benefits of infant male circumcision that have been promoted over time include the prevention of urinary tract infections and sexually transmitted diseases, and the reduction in risk of penile and cervical cancer. Current consensus of medical opinion, including that of the Canadian and American Paediatric Societies and the American Urological Society, is that there is insufficient evidence that these benefits outweigh the potential risks. That is, routine infant male circumcision, i.e. routine removal of normal tissue in a healthy infant, is not recommended."

See also:
Canadian Children's Rights Council
"It is the position of the Canadian Children's Rights Council that "circumcision" of male or female children is genital mutilation of children.
...
The Canadian Children's Rights Council position is that there is no medical benefit to the routine genital mutilation (circumcision) of any children (defined by U.N. as those under 18 years of age). Further, all Canadian children, both male and female, should be protected by the criminal laws of Canada with regards to this aggravated assault. Currently, the protection provided by the Criminal Code of Canada includes only genital mutilation (circumcision) of female children."


It's worth remembering that we wouldn't even be having this discussion if it weren't for the fact that 19th century doctors thought that :
a) masturbation caused various physical and mental problems (including epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, tubercolosis etc), and
b) circumcision stopped masturbation.

Both of those sound ridiculous today I know, but if you don't believe me, then check out this link:
A Short History of Circumcision in North America In the Physicians' Own Words

Mindboggling, but over a hundred years later, circumcised fathers keep having it done to their sons.

The rates are dropping though. Drops in male circumcision:

USA: from 90% to 57%
Canada: from 47% to 14%
UK: from 35% to about 3% (less than 1% among non-Muslims)
Australia: 90% to 12.6% ("routine" circumcision has recently been *banned* in public hospitals in all states except one, so the rate will now be a lot lower)
New Zealand: 95% to below 3% (mostly Samoans and Tongans)
South America and Europe: never above 5%

Edited by - ml66uk on 11/09/2008 13:30:07
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vikinggirl

1 Posts Baby Arrived on 11/9/2008

Posted - 11/09/2008 :  13:49:34 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Prouddad09 please please please don't do this to your son!
It's highly unlikely he would choose this for himself as an adult - consider that of those whole Jewish men who migrated from the former USSR to Israel a full third chose to remain intact (and most of their wives are supportive of them remaining so). Amazing considering the pressure they must have been under to get cut, but the fact is that men love their foreskins and women do too. Don't think restoration is an option if you cut him - some men find it impossible, and for others it takes years.

The bit i have most issue with in your post is the idea that as an adult undergoing circumcision you think the wound is more likely to get dirty and infected. This defies reality. I urge you to look at inside a boy's dirty nappy.... basically the penis gets covered in poo, it couldn't be more dirty an environment. So you want to give him a wound where it will get soaked with runny poo on a daily basis, and you think this is hygienic?? Think of the ongoing pain also - how would you like to have someone soak ammonia into a raw wound on your genitals on a daily basis during the 10-30 days it will take to fully heal?

Also consider the issue of erection pain during healing which you've raised. You obviously don't realise that baby boys get erections too. Often the very first one will be the one that results when the doctor rubs antiseptic on the penis he's about to slice open. So the first erotic feelings will co-incide with the most pain he will likely ever feel in his life.

And you the proud daddy want to do this? I'd hate to see what you'd put him through if you weren't proud of him.....

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TLCTugger

USA
2 Posts Baby Arrived on 11/4/2008

Posted - 11/10/2008 :  09:57:59 Show Profile Visit TLCTugger's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I could care less if I was or was not, but for vanity reasons and selfish reasons I will get him circumcised, he has the rest of his life to be mad at me if he does indeed care that his penis is not "intact"


It's HIS body, why can't HE decide. 95% of the non-Muslim world does not circumcise, so what's the urgency to make an irreversible decision for him that he could easily make for himself.

Cutting in infancy is the worst time since the foreskin must be torn from the glans (like ripping fingernails out) and everything is so small, and the healing must happen in soiled diapers, and he can't tell you if something doesn't feel just right about the healing, and because he can't consent.

He's a person, not property.

quote:
there are ways of restoring the foreskin, so if he doesn't like it there are many at-home methods of restoring the "damage done"


I've restored. I grew an inch of new skin per YEAR for FOUR years, and I STILL didn't re-grow a single nerve ending. Circumcision removes over half the male's pleasure-receptive nerve endings. Adding the slack skin back makes intimacy world's better, and the natural protection for the supple glans is great, but I would literally gleefully disembowel my circumciser if I could go back in time to stop him from amputating a healthy normal part of my body, especially the lost nerves.

quote:
I suppose I'll get my share of the "your a horrible person for doing this" talk.


I would never say that, because I would use the word you're, not your. :)

Cheers,
-Ron
HIS body HIS decision

Edited by - TLCTugger on 11/10/2008 23:31:03
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shep5377

United Kingdom
98 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/8/2008

Posted - 11/10/2008 :  10:28:58 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tugger,

Why did you add the last bit? That's just insulting. Fine for the rest of it if that's your opinion but there is no need to be rude. It taints the rest of your post and makes you sound like an arse.

Did I spell that right?

Edited by - shep5377 on 11/10/2008 10:32:42
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ProudDaddy09

USA
22 Posts Baby Arrived on 1/25/2009

Posted - 11/11/2008 :  00:40:45 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was under the impression that this forum was for new dads to get information from guys who are dads, not to get insulted, I am a soon to be dad I searched on the internet for a good place to gain knowledge and all I get is insults and people yelling at me for getting my child circumcised, there's nothing wrong with being circumcised, yes your lacking a protective sheath for the gland of your penis and some sensitivity for sexual enjoyment, and yes there are risks to both sides, with circumcision you have the worst case scenario of losing your newborn child, with having a foreskin you have the worst case scenario of getting a serious infection that could lead to the loss of well the whole reason this topic was started, we all have our reasons, you don't see me harping on someone for not getting circumcised do you, no you don't. Do I believe in letting my son make his own decisions sure I do, but as parents don't we all make decisions we think are best for our child, yes weather or not to get your son circumcised is a big one, one that will effect him for the rest of their lives, so I think all we can do here is state our case for if were for or against it, and why. Not come here read someone's reason's not matter how horrible they might be, and move on, the topic is yea or nea for circumcision, if you have information on it, great post it, if all you can do is riddicule someone for their beliefs or decisions then this is not the forum for you, if you want to learn great things and get tips from the pros come on in and learn, but in the end its a decision that all parents must face when giving birth to a son, and weather your for or against it is up to you.

I can not wait to be a father!
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f99944r

2 Posts Baby Arrived on 1/1/2009

Posted - 11/11/2008 :  01:13:19 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You're not being insulted, you are being given helpful information about circumcision and why your reasoning is faulty, which you are choosing to ignore.
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shep5377

United Kingdom
98 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/8/2008

Posted - 11/11/2008 :  06:17:35 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually f99944r, he was being insulted by TLC Tugger about his spelling, something completely irrelevent. Your post could be construed as offensive as well. I happen to disagree with circumcision but I don't shout down anyone who thinks otherwise.
Read back on the posts.

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lotrfan

USA
501 Posts Baby Arrived on 3/16/2012

Posted - 11/11/2008 :  14:51:11 Show Profile  Send lotrfan an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Shep...there is no ned to insult or disparrage another's opinions.

f99944r - you say his reasoning is faulty, I say it is his reasoning and not yours. It doesn't make him any less of a caring father or parent than you. It is almost as laughable as the tons of posts and forums in new mom sites where over-hormonal women make mothers who choose to bottle-feed feel like they are less of a mother or that they care about their children any less. I've said it in an earlier post, and it bears repeating:

"I heartily disagree with the people that have a "my way is the best and only way" attitude.

I guess in the end, that old saying holds true: 'Opinions are like a**holes - everyone has one and they usually stink.'"


...not all who wander are lost...
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Hugh7

New Zealand
3 Posts Baby Arrived on 7/8/2012

Posted - 11/12/2008 :  01:29:11 Show Profile Visit Hugh7's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ProudDaddy09

there's nothing wrong with being circumcised, yes your lacking a protective sheath for the gland of your penis and some sensitivity for sexual enjoyment,
Well, those are things wrong with being circumcised.
quote:
and yes there are risks to both sides, with circumcision you have the worst case scenario of losing your newborn child, with having a foreskin you have the worst case scenario of getting a serious infection
but those risks are not equal, and infections can be treated.
quote:
as parents don't we all make decisions we think are best for our child, yes weather or not to get your son circumcised is a big one, one that will effect him for the rest of their lives,
It's a unique one. There is no other healthy, non-renewable part of the human body that parents may have cut off for any reason or none. It's striking that it is not just illegal to cut off the exactly equivalent part of a little girl (and I'm not talking about Africa, it was done in hospitals in the US until the 1970s), it's illegal to cut her genitals in any way at all, and in some jurisdictions (including mine) even an adult women's informed consent to her own surgery is not enough.
quote:
in the end its a decision that all parents must face when giving birth to a son
Actually, no, in New Zealand it hasn't been offered since the 1970s and now hardly any babies get circumcised. It's never been offered in Europe or Scandinavia or South America, and nursing staff would be surprised, if not shocked, if they were asked. It's only "a decision that all parents must face" because it is pushed on you. And that's because making it sound like a Great Big Important Decision that you Have to Make (in a culture where the majority do it) is one of the most efficient ways of ensuring it gets done. If parents decide not to do it, or seem undecided, they get browbeaten until they "decide" (to do it). All these articles (Usually called "To Cut or Not to Cut") that present five (or ten) reasons for and five (or ten) against are subtlely loaded towards circumcision. On the one side, you are cutting the most sensitive part of your son's genitals off forever. On the other you are doing nothing. They are not ethically, medically or in any other way equivalent.
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mwcne

2 Posts Baby Arrived on 5/22/2009

Posted - 11/15/2008 :  09:48:39 Show Profile Visit mwcne's Homepage  Reply with Quote
My girlfriend told me about a website - http://www.ksnocirc.org
Thanks to her we educated ourselves before our son was born and decided to leave his perfect body alone.
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Hugh7

New Zealand
3 Posts Baby Arrived on 7/8/2012

Posted - 11/16/2008 :  14:20:59 Show Profile Visit Hugh7's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lotrfan

you say his reasoning is faulty, I say it is his reasoning and not yours.
Sorry, reasoning doesn't work tht way. Reasoning is like mathematics, not taste, there are right and wrong answers. You can argue about the facts, but that's another matter.
quote:
"I heartily disagree with the people that have a "my way is the best and only way" attitude.

Again, cutting part of a healthy baby's genitals off is like cutting part of another healthy baby's genitals off, not like folding a diaper or tying your shoelaces. It's right or wrong, because both babies are going to grow up to be men with their own ideas of how much of their own genitals they want to keep. Some surveys have shown that men are much more likely to be happy to be intact than happy to be cut, and those who are unhappy to be intact can always get cut, so intact is the safer option in that regard.
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lotrfan

USA
501 Posts Baby Arrived on 3/16/2012

Posted - 11/17/2008 :  12:23:33 Show Profile  Send lotrfan an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
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Originally posted by Hugh7

Sorry, reasoning doesn't work tht way. Reasoning is like mathematics, not taste, there are right and wrong answers. You can argue about the facts, but that's another matter.
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I disagree with this. Facts are more akin to mathematics, with facts being either correct or incorrect, black or white. Since reasoning is defined as "the cognitive process of looking for reasons for beliefs, conclusions, actions or feelings" it is more individualized, with everyone having their own cognitive process. This would make it more akin to taste (from your example above), which is more individualized. Everyone has their own taste, everyone has their own reasonings for their choices, everyone has their own opinions.


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Again, cutting part of a healthy baby's genitals off is like cutting part of another healthy baby's genitals off, not like folding a diaper or tying your shoelaces. It's right or wrong, because both babies are going to grow up to be men with their own ideas of how much of their own genitals they want to keep. Some surveys have shown that men are much more likely to be happy to be intact than happy to be cut, and those who are unhappy to be intact can always get cut, so intact is the safer option in that regard.
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I heartily respect your opinion and the passion with which you express it. My disagreement is on those who make others feel that they are less of a parent or that they care for their child any less because of the choices that are made. We are all loving, caring parents, or else we would not have sought out this site to begin with.



...not all who wander are lost...
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hardie

63 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/18/2006

Posted - 11/21/2008 :  16:30:31 Show Profile Visit hardie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You might be loving parents but are you making the right decision for the right reasons, the internet is for information dissemination, circumcision does harm, because it removes the most errogenous tissue and nerve endings from the male genitalia, do you really have that right??? Or are you making this decision without that knowledge?

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derevaun

USA
7 Posts Baby Arrived on 5/26/2008

Posted - 11/23/2008 :  01:11:44 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What a thread! This is a really dumb choice for my first post, but maybe not, since it's such a big decision.

I'm circumcised and my son is not. My wife left it to me, and the first person I asked about it was our pediatrician. I asked her two things: what proportion of her patients were circumcised, and if she recommended it for hygienic or any other reasons. She told me that she sees about two uncut for one circumcised boy, and that there is no hygienic reason to circumcise, provided we show him how to clean his penis. The rest of the decision, she said, is purely cultural.

I don't discount the hygiene argument. My parents were unwilling to talk to me about my penis due to their personal take on their religious beliefs, so it's just as well that I was circumcised. I don't plan to raise my child that way, and I figure that when the question comes up about why his penis is different from mine (and I look forward to it), I'll just, you know, answer the question, and take comfort in the fact that it was comparatively easy among questions kids ask. I respect the choices of other parents for high standards of modesty and propriety, but we chose a different course.

Similarly, my son will be stupendously lucky if the worst teasing he endures from his peers is about his foreskin. Actually, I'll be glad if he's in an environment that is open enough for kids to casually see each other's junk. Or whatever they call it :-D

My son's grandparents will eventually come out with their disapproval, and my main argument is that I want my son to be a man of his culture, and most boys here on the West coast of the US are uncut. I can't predict his future movements well enough to make a different assessment.

I did do the requisite and typical reading on the internet, and found most of it interesting but not compelling. Emotional arguments are a very dangerous place for facts to wander into, and statistics are particularly subject to distortion. I'd rather look into the face of someone I trust, who has expertise and training.

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shep5377

United Kingdom
98 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/8/2008

Posted - 11/23/2008 :  11:29:10 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not a dumb first post at all mate, your last paragraph sums this thread up really well!

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gijoedad

USA
34 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/7/2008

Posted - 11/24/2008 :  18:35:37 Show Profile Visit gijoedad's Homepage  Send gijoedad a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
As far as the " I want my child to look like daddy" issue. I'm uncut, and have no clue if my father was cut or not. Children don't really care or just don't find out.

...everyone has their own say in life. What will you do with yours?
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Perthfem

Australia
5 Posts Baby Arrived on 3/4/2007

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  17:27:15 Show Profile Visit Perthfem's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I came from a jewish culture and decided not to circumcise my 3 sons. This led to disapproval by some family members but support from others. I have no regrets about losing some family members as a result of my decision. My boys are men now and have thanked me, and have decided to leave their sons natural as well. Circumcision needs to be a decision that an adult makes, and it is a myth that it is better done as a baby.

It is a big myth is that if you circumcize a baby it is less painful than if you do it to an adult. WRONG!!!!!!!!!

This is a myth, exposed by Professor Anand who studied closely the effects of circumcision on newborns and found, many babies were severely traumatised by the procedure, experienced excrutiating pain, and many went into shock (The silent response). At 6 months follow-up when having an immunization procedure, the circumcised babies cried for longer and experienced more pain than the intact babies, showing that there was a trauma memory causing a greater pain response, and possibly leaving those that are circumcised being more sensitive to pain lifelong.

So it's bull**** that adults experience greater pain, adults just have the verbal language to express, whereas in babies they have an under-developed cns leading to sensory memory which is trauma related.




Edited by - Perthfem on 12/09/2008 17:29:24
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Perthfem

Australia
5 Posts Baby Arrived on 3/4/2007

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  17:52:01 Show Profile Visit Perthfem's Homepage  Reply with Quote
derevaun, excellent post, just read it, similarly to me you put your son's best interests first, you are to be congratulated.

Being an ex-health professional and studying extensively, it is not always wise to trust health professionals as not all are ethical, nor do they all stay updated on the latest literature. In my home state of western australia which has a circumcision rate of about 6% it was found in urban areas the rate was less than 3% and in rural areas it was up to about 12%. This was further researched and found that in rural areas the doctors/paed's were older anglosaxon males, who were not up on the harms of circcumcision (had minimised them) and were lacking in knowledge of the anatomical and sexual function of the foreskin. An education program was then instituted. So you can't always trust the medical professions!!!

Edited by - Perthfem on 12/09/2008 17:56:50
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Noahsarkdad

8 Posts Baby Arrived on 10/5/2008

Posted - 12/23/2008 :  13:37:49 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TLCTUGGER.....NICE QUOTE! "It's HIS body, why can't HE decide. 95% of the non-Muslim world does not circumcise, so what's the urgency to make an irreversible decision for him that he could easily make for himself."

I assume that you are against abortion then too, right! Because why would a person/baby choose to be aborted. good, it is the babies body right? you just said it....not just a womans right to choose!?

i am circumcised and glad that i am. nothing wrong with it.
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TUS

United Kingdom
36 Posts Baby Arrived on 4/4/2009

Posted - 12/25/2008 :  04:06:30 Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's a bit strong to compare circumcision to abortion ... they are totally different things done for different reasons. Circumcision is a cosmetic CHANGE to an already born body. It does not affect that persons ability to live.

I'm not "Pro Abortion" but likewise, I'm not against it. It's a very individual and personal decision and I don't believe in applying blanket ideologies to it. I can acknowledge some are initiated hastily but I believe there may be circumstances when it is the right decision for the women involved.
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hardie

63 Posts Baby Arrived on 12/18/2006

Posted - 01/01/2009 :  03:02:42 Show Profile Visit hardie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Happy New Year everyone, and may your foreskin be with you!!!!!!

And to Noahsarkdad, the whole point of this thread is to debate the harms and what is wrong with circumcision. There is lots of evidence that circumcision does harm, and that the foreskin has important anatomical functions which are lost to circumcision. As for using this to put your views on abortion here, inappropriate I think.

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